Historical Document · 1967
The transcribed memoir of General Lemuel C. Shepherd Jr. from interviews of 1966–67, including his First World War service with the 5th Marines. The Chauchat dive searched the full text and found that the much-repeated "damned Chauchat" quotation attributed to him does not appear in it.
FOREWORD This typescript, the transcribed memoir of General Lemuel C. Shepherd, Jr., USMC (Retired) results from a series of tape-recorded interviews conducted with him at his home in Warrenton, Virginia on 27 July and 4 August 1966 and in La Jolla, California on 13, 16, and 22 February 1967, for the Marine Corps Oral History Program. As one facet of the Marine Corps historical collection effort, this program obtains by means of tape-recorded interviews, primary source material to augment documentary evidence. Oral History is essentially spoken history, the oral recall of eyewitness impressions and observations recorded accurately on tape in the course of an interview conducted by an historian or an individual employing historical methodology and possibly the techniques of a journalist. The final product is a verbatim transcript containing historically valuable personal narratives relating to noteworthy professional experiences and observations from active duty, reserve, and retired distinguished Marines. General Shepherd has read the transcript and made only minor corrections and emendations. The reader is asked to bear in mind, therefore, that he is reading a transcript of the spoken rather than the written word. General Shepherd has placed a restriction of OPEN on the use of both his interview tapes and transcripts. This means that a potential user may read the transcript or audit the recording upon presentation of appropriate credentials. Copies of this memoir are deposited in the Marine Corps Oral History Collection, Historical Division, Headquarters, U.S. Marine Corps, Washington, D.C.; Special Collections, Butler Library, Columbia University, New York, N.Y.; Oral History Collection, United States Naval Institute, Annapolis, Md.; the Superintendent, Virginia Military Institute, Lexington, Virginia; and the Manuscript Collection, Breckinridge Library, Marine Corps Development and Education Command, Quantico, Va. Under terms of their custodianship, none of the above is permitted to reproduce either oral history transcripts or the interview tapes themselves, nor are they permitted to make them available through interlibrary loan. The transcripts must be read only where they are held in collection, while the interview tapes may be audited only at Headquarters, U.S. Marine Corps. (Signed) E.H. SIMMONS Brigadier General, U.S. Marine Corps (Retired) Director of Marine Corps History and Museums i GENERAL LEMUEL C. SHEPHERD, JR., USMC (RETIRED) On 1 October 1959, General Lemuel C. Shepherd, Jr., United States Marine Corps, retired from active duty after forty-two years and six months distinguished service to his Corps and country. Born on February 10, 1896, in Norfolk, Virginia, General Shepherd is a graduate of the Virginia Military Institute. He was commissioned a second lieutenant in the Marine Corps on April 11, 1917, and, on May 19, reported for active duty at the Marine Barracks, Port Royal, South Carolina. Less than a month later, Lieutenant Shepherd sailed for France as a member of the 5th Marine Regiment, with the first elements of the American Expeditionary Forces. He served in defensive sectors in the vicinity of Verdun and participated in the Aisne-Marne offensive (Chateau-Thierry) where he was twice wounded in action at Belleau Wood during the fighting there in June of 1918. Upon returning to the front in August, he rejoined the 5th Marines and saw action in the St. Mihiel and Meuse-Argonne (Champagne) offensive where he was wounded for the third time. For his gallantry in action at Belleau Wood, Lieutenant Shepherd was awarded the Army Distinguished Service Cross, the Navy Cross, the French Croix de Guerre, and was cited in the general orders of the 2nd Infantry Division, American Expeditionary Forces. After duty with the Army of Occupation in Germany, Captain Shepherd sailed for home in July 1919. In September, he returned to France for duty in connection with the preparation of relief maps of the battlefields over which the 4th Brigade of Marines had fought. Upon Captain Shepherd’s return to the U.S. in December 1920, he was assigned as Aide-de-Camp to the Commandant and Aide at the White House. In July 1922, he was assigned duty in command of a selected company of Marines at the Brazilian Exposition at Rio de Janeiro. In June of 1923, Captain Shepherd was ordered to sea duty as Commanding Officer of the Marine Detachment, USS Idaho. This tour was followed by duty at the Marine Barracks, Norfolk, Virginia, where he commanded the Sea School. In April 1927, Captain Shepherd sailed for expeditionary duty in China, where he served in the 3d Marine Brigade in Tientsin and Shanghai. Upon returning to the United States in 1929, he attended the Field Officers’ Course, Marine Corps Schools. After graduation, Captain Shepherd was assigned overseas again, this time on detached duty with the Garde d’Haiti where he served for four years as a District and Department Commander. ii Following the withdrawal of Marines from Haiti in 1934, Major Shepherd was detailed to the Marine Barracks, Washington, D.C., as Executive Officer and as Registrar of the Marine Corps Institute. Promoted to Lieutenant Colonel in 1936, he was assigned to the Naval War College at Newport, Rhode Island. Following graduation in May 1937, he commanded the 2nd Battalion, 5th Marines, part of the newly formed Fleet Marine Force, which was being extensively employed in the development of amphibious tactics and techniques. In June 1939, he was ordered to the Staff of the Marine Corps Schools, Quantico, Virginia, where he served during the next three years as Director, Correspondence School; Chief of the Tactical Section; Officer in Charge of the Candidates Class, and Assistant Commandant. In March 1942, four months after this country’s entry into World War II, Colonel Shepherd was ordered to command the 9th Marine Regiment. He organized, trained, and took this unit overseas as part of the 3d Marine Division. Upon appointment to general officer rank in July 1943, while serving on Guadalcanal, Brigadier General Shepherd was assigned as Assistant Division Commander of the 1st Marine Division. In this capacity, he participated in the Cape Gloucester operation on New Britain from December 1943 through March 1944, where he was awarded a Legion of Merit for distinguished service in command of the operations in the Borgen Bay area. In May 1944, General Shepherd assumed command of the 1st Provisional Marine Brigade and led this organization in the invasion and subsequent recapture of Guam during July and August of 1944. For distinguished leadership in this operation, the General received his first Distinguished Service Medal, and was promoted to Major General. After organizing the 6th Marine Division from the Brigade, Major General Shepherd commanded it throughout the Okinawa Operation and subsequently took the Division to Tsingtao, China. There, on October 25, 1945, he received the surrender of the Japanese forces in this area. For exceptionally meritorious service as Commanding General of the 6th Marine Division in the assault and occupation of Okinawa (1 April to 21 June 1945) he was awarded a Gold Star in lieu of a second Distinguished Service Medal. The citation for this decoration reads in part: “Schooled by grim experience in the art of countering Japanese strategies, Major General Shepherd organized a major Marine Corps fighting unit for the second time within a year, planned its commitment into battle with brilliant military acumen . . . and demonstrated a superior ability to use the men and weapons at his command. His indomitable courage and astute judgment were important factors in the success of his division’s operations.” iii Several months later, the General returned to the United States and in March 1946, organized the Troop Training Command, Amphibious Forces, Atlantic Fleet, at Little Creek, Virginia. On November 1 of the same year, he was ordered to duty as Assistant to the Commandant and Chief-of-Staff of Marine Corps Headquarters. He remained at this post until April 1948, when he was assigned to Quantico, Virginia, where he served as Commandant of the Marine Corps Schools until June, 1950. When the Korean War erupted, General Shepherd was in command of the Fleet Marine Forces, Pacific, with Headquarters at Pearl Harbor. In this capacity, he participated in the landing at Inchon and the evacuation of our forces from Hungnam following the withdrawal from the Chosin Reservoir in North Korea in December 1950. On 1 January 1952, he was appointed Commandant of the Marine Corps by the President of the United States. During General Shepherd’s four year appointment as the 20th Commandant of the Marine Corps he initiated a number of important policies which resulted in an increased military proficiency of the Corps. He was the first commandant to become a member of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, and upon his retirement on 1 January 1956, he was awarded a third Distinguished Service Medal. President Eisenhower’s citation read in part: “His far-sighted understanding of our national objectives, dedicated as they are to the establishment of enduring peace throughout the world, has likewise earned him the keen regard of the most important policy making organizations of this country. This distinguished officer’s contribution to the Government of the United States during 39 years of unfaltering devotion in both war and peace, reflects the highest credit up himself and the United States Naval Service.” Two months after his retirement, General Shepherd was recalled to active duty and appointed Chairman of the Inter-American Defense Board. During the three and a half years o service with this international organization, General Shepherd by his leadership and diplomacy, made substantial contributions towards plans for the defense of the continent and the promotion of military solidarity among the military forces of the Republics of this Hemisphere. Upon the relinquishment of his duties with the InterAmerican Defense Board on 15 September 1959, General Shepherd received a commendatory letter from the Joint Chiefs of Staff which reads in part as follows: “During a period of many world tensions, your dynamic leadership has imparted new vigor to the Inter-American Defense Board. The record lists numerous tangible accomplishments reflecting your superb attainments. Furthermore, there have been splendid achievements of an intangible nature, far-reaching in promoting hemispheric solidarity. As a result of your continuing efforts, the Inter-American Defense Board has maintained a stature unequalled in its history and has become a positive factor in the destiny of the Western Hemisphere.” In addition to the Navy Cross; Distinguished Service Cross; Distinguished Service Medal with two Gold Stars and the Legion of Merit with Oak Leaf Cluster; his decorations and medals include the Silver Star with two Oak Leaf Clusters, France 1918 and Korea 1950; Oak Leaf Cluster in lieu of a second Legion of Merit, China 1945; iv Bronze Star, China 1945; Purple Heart with two Oak Leaf Clusters, France 1918 and one Gold Star, Okinawa; Presidential Unit Citation with three Bronze Stars, Okinawa and Korea; Navy Unit Commendation with one Bronze Star, Guam and Cape Gloucester; Victory Medal World War I with four Bronze Stars, Aisne-Marne, St. Mihiel, MeuseArgonne, and Defensive Sector Clasp, France 1918; Expeditionary Medal with one Bronze Star, China 1927-28, Haiti 1930; Yangtze Service Medal, Shanghai, China 1927; American Defense Service medal; American Campaign Medal; Asiatic-Pacific Campaign Medal with four Bronze Stars; China Service Medal, 1945; Victory Medal World War II; Navy Occupation Service Medal with two Bronze Stars; United Nations Service Medal; Korean Service Medal with two Bronze Stars; United Nations Service Medal; French Croix de Guerre with Gilt Star, France 1918; French Fourragère, France 1918; Medaille pour la Bravoure Militaire (Montenegrin) with crossed swords and palm; Haitian Order of Honor and Merit; Haitian Distinguished Service Medal; Order of the Cloud and Banner, Second Grade, China; Republic of Korea Order of Military Merit Taiguk Medal with Gold Star; Korean Presidential Unit Citation; Bronze Plaque with Diploma Commemorative Especial, Brazil 1922-23; Naval Order of Merit, Grand Officer Argentine 1955; Naval Order of Merit, Grand Officer Brazil 1955; Grand Cross of Naval Merit of Spain 1955; Abdon Calderon, First Class, Republic of Ecuador 1955; Military Order of the Ayacucho, Grand Officer, Peru 1956; Grand Cross, National Order of Merit of Paraguay 1956; Medal of Military Merit of Mexico, First Class 1955; Legion of Honor, Grade of Commander, France 1957; Brazilian Order of Military Merit, Degree of Grand Officer, 1959; Commander of the Order of Couronne, Belgium, 1959; National Order of Military Merit of Paraguay, Grade of Grand Officer, 1959. v CONTENTS Page: Session 1 2 Session 2 71 Session 3 110 Session 4 141 Session 5 177 Word Search 206 1 General Lemuel C. Shepherd, Jr., USMC (Retired) – 20th Commandant of the Marine Corps – General Shepherd’s home, Leeton Forest, Warrenton, Virginia – July 27, 1966. Benis M. Frank – Head, Oral History Unit, Historical Branch, G-3 Division, Headquarter Marine Corps. Colonel Robert D. Heinl, Jr., USMC (Retired) Q (Heinl): Shepherd: Q (Heinl): Shepherd: The Corps never had a better time than when you were Commandant, General. Well, thanks to the fine staff I had. You boys really supported me. You, Jerry, Brute, and others. I think we did accomplish a great deal for the good of the Corps. The Marine Corps made more progress in those four years, and it’s not back yet where it was before I think, General. Of course, I always feel that General Cates was the officer who really deserved more credit than anyone else to save the Marine Corps from destruction during the period he was Commandant. He was the one who took the rap and stood up and was counted when President Truman called the Marine Corps a Police Force. (Irrelevant conversation concerning a diary kept by my grandfather who was a Nantucket Whaling Captain which has prompted me to write the story of my life.) Q: Q (Heinl): Q: Before we go one, I’ve got an official duty to perform. This is Tape One, Side One of an interview with General Lemuel C. Shepherd, Jr., United States Marine Corps (Retired). The date is 27 July, 1966. We are interviewing General Shepherd at his home in Leeton Forest, Warrenton, Virginia. The interviewer is Benis M. Frank, Historian, Historical Branch, and accompanying me is Colonel Robert D. Heinl, Jr., United States Marine Corps (Retired). Would you say a few words, Colonel Heinl, so that the transcriber can recognize your voice as opposed to mine? Yes, I will simply explain that my principal involvement in this interview is to talk to General Shepherd a little bit about the Inchon operation in 1950 of which he was a participant, and in which he served as General MacArthur’s amphibious advisor. I will be playing a wholly secondary role in the mainstream of the transcription: All right. Well, suppose I start off with the earlier things I said I was going to talk about and we’ll lead up to Inchon. The Part VI, which is the concluding part of Volume V, which is the last volume in the five-volume World War II histories, says “Conclusion.” Actually we brought up many matters which had not been dealt with previously in the other four volumes. A wad of new material cropped up, but we tried to give a review 2 Shepherd: Q: Shepherd: Q: Shepherd: Q: Shepherd: Q: Shepherd: primarily, indicating the development of amphibious doctrine, techniques, based on what had been started in ’33. Now you were aide to General Lejeune, I believe, in 1921, sir. And the so-called Father of Marine strategy in the Pacific was Lieutenant Colonel Earl Ellis, Pete Ellis, whom, as I understand, was very close to Lejeune. Is that correct, sir? That’s right. Can you tell us anything about Ellis? Was he the one and only, I mean was he the only farsighted individual or were there other people who felt much the same as he did? In other words was Ellis the leading prophet of the importance of the Pacific in a war with Japan. That is a difficult question. I was a young captain serving as a personal aide to General Lejeune. In those days the aides didn’t get into the operational picture so to speak. We looked after the generals social engagements and I rode with him every morning, from the Commandant’s house to Headquarters, but the aides were not in on planning or major decisions. I remember Pete Ellis when he was on duty at headquarters. I believe he was in Naval Intelligence, wasn’t he? Yes sir. He was in ONI working on the Orange Plan. That’s right. And I remember him going in to see the Commandant from time to time but at the time I didn’t realize his foresightedness about the Pacific. Of course we all knew that the Pacific probably would be our next battlefield with the Japanese as our enemies. But I, I didn’t know at that time that Ellis was a great student of amphibious warfare. Let me go back a moment. After the fighting was over in World War I I was assigned to the Fourth Brigade Headquarters in Germany as an assistant to Major Barrett, who relieved Pete Ellis as the Operation Officer of the brigade. Am I correct on that? Yes, sir. Ellis started out as the brigade Adjutant but became engaged in operations. During the latter part of World War I, Ellis was the Operations Officer for the Fourth Marine Brigade. In those days we didn’t have a modern staff, one, two, three, and four. We only had a skeletonized brigade headquarters which Ellis ran. General Neville was the Brigade Commander. But Pete Ellis, as far back as World War I, was known to the rank and file as being a brilliant officer but he had a great weakness as all of you know – for overindulgence in alcoholic beverages. Yes. After the war when we were in Germany I was selected, I never knew just why, as one of General Neville’s aides. At that time Pete Ellis was just leaving to return to the United States, so I never had the opportunity to know him personally. As I recall Pete Ellis at that time had the reputation as being an outstanding tactician. He wrote all the operation orders for the Brigade. I mean the Brigade attack orders for the Champagne and Argonne battles. 3 Q: Shepherd: Q: Shepherd: Q: Shepherd: Q (Heinl): Shepherd: Q (Heinl): Pete Ellis was the officer who did all the one, two, three, and four staff work. Major Barrett succeeded Ellis as the Brigade Chief-of-Staff and also did the one, two, three, and four work. I mean he was the entire Brigade Staff. We had a Captain Galliford who was an aide to General Neville. And I was brought to the Brigade Staff as Barrett’s Assistant but at the time there wasn’t any tactical work as we were on occupational duty. We came home a couple of months after I was assigned to the Brigade Staff so I really didn’t get into any staff planning except in preparing the orders to return to the United States. In those days most orders that came from Division headquarters were simply passed down to the regiments. Although I never had the opportunity to know Ellis he was highly thought of throughout the Fourth Brigade. To come back to your question, when I was in headquarters in 1921 Ellis’ name was legend but I was unaware of any farsighted planning for war in the Pacific that he might have done. I do recall though that he went out to the Mandated Islands and didn’t come back. There was considerable discussion about it. I remember that it was always a question as to whether Pete Ellis was murdered or whether he drank himself to death. I’ve often heard the question discussed, then and later, as to what occurred. No one will ever know. I remember – it’s coming back to me now – I remember General Lejeune tried to get a report from the hospital, the Yokohama Hospital. Their story with which you are familiar was that he had gone out on a reconnaissance of Peleliu. That he was on a secret mission. Of course they didn’t bring that out. The last thing that was known of Ellis is that he’d gone out with some fisherman and a case of liquor in his boat, and they never knew what happened to him. There was at that time, a question whether Pete Ellis was really murdered or done away with by the Japanese. Looking back on it now with what I know of the Japanese, I suspect them of skullduggery. Yes. The consensus of opinion at the time was that he had – Drunk himself to death. Yes, - drunk himself into a stupor and may have died from sunstroke in the heat of the topics. Well, I don’t know whether you’ve read – You agree with me, Bob, on that? I mean, I’m asking Bob, isn’t that more or less the story as you know it? Yes, sir. Actually there is a sequel to the story. Waite Worden, one of our younger officers, I don’t know if you know him or not, was the Barracks Commander at Guam right after the war. Yes. And he made a trip down to the Palaus and turned up some evidence or quasi-evidence which suggest that Ellis was probably fed poisoned liquor. The Japanese observed him for a time and, at a given point, gave him 4 Q: Shepherd: Q (Heinl): Q: Shepherd: Q (Heinl): Q: Shepherd: Q: Shepherd: Q: Shepherd: Q: some, no doubt a bottle of poisoned Suntori. Because of this, he was remembered by a couple of people that Worden talked to, and one of them described the way he was given some liquor by the Japanese and died that night. You know that to be true? It’s conclusive, then. Yes, sir. John Kaluf, Colonel John Kaluf, a member of the First Division Association was at a board meeting about a year and a half ago. We were talking about this, and he said during the height of the battle on Palau, one of his men came to him with a sign and said, “Colonel, look. I found this sign with Ellis’, Earl Ellis’ name on it.” They were in the midst of fighting a battle and the man disappeared and the sign disappeared. Speaking of Japanese liquor, I remember when I was making a trip to Japan where I met Mrs. Shepherd in 1927. I was at Tientsin, China. General Butler had given me permission to meet her in Kobe. While returning on a Japanese ship we stopped at Shimonoseki. I went ashore just (to) walk around while the ship stopped there for a couple of hours. I stopped at a liquor store and I looked on a self. There were all the brands of whiskey, famous brands, Black Label Scotch, Red Label Scotch, and many others so I purchased several bottles to take aboard ship with me. When I tried some of this whiskey it was God-awful stuff, just Japanese imitation of, Scotch whiskey. It was so bad that I couldn’t drink it. And along that line, I recall when we took Saipan, (I wasn’t there when we took it, but I went over there a month or so later from Guam) we found a distillery where the Japanese made whiskey from sugarcane. They had a box of labels with every know brand of whiskey, but they put the same damn liquor in each bottle and pasted on a Johnny Walker’s Black Label or some other brand name label using the same liquor. I saw with my own eyes a line of cases of whiskey with different brand named labels. All made from rum with different flavorings. Did you ever see that? Were you ever there? Yes, sir. Well, you know when the First Division went up to Tientsin in ’45 from Taku Flats – Were you there in Tientsin in ’45? Yes, sir. Yes, sir. Well, that’s when I got over there. Well, we went up, I remember going up on a train. It had Chinese boys selling Black Label, Red Label and famous brands. And a couple of the people going up to Tientsin died or took very sick and later found out what they ha done was to take red-hot wires and bore through the bottom of the bottle, withdraw the whiskey in there and put anything you can imagine in instead. That was a famous stunt of the Chinese. Let’s talk about Ellis’ death again. 5 Shepherd: Q: Shepherd: Q: Shepherd: Q: Shepherd: Q: Shepherd: Q: Shepherd: Q: Shepherd: Q: Shepherd: Q: Shepherd: It may have been some of the poor Japanese liquor, but I don’t hold it above the Japanese to have poisoned him. It will always be a question whether Ellis was killed intentionally or whether he just drunk himself to death. Ellis Zacharias was a Navy Captain. I knew Zacharias. He was living in Shanghai when I was there. Well he was a Japanese language expert and student at the time and, I guess, a member of the ONI. And then his book, “Secret Missions” it is, only once or twice. Ellis' mentioned the fact that there was a drunken Marine Lieutenant Colonel out there. Now whether he wrote this book after the war, or whether he based this comment on his memories or what he’d read or whether this was actually the fact is unknown. Zacharias was up the Yangtze at the time. This was in ’27. I was out there in ’28 in Shanghai, and his wife lived at the same French pension where Mrs. Shepherd and I boarded. Zacharias’ ship was in and out of Shanghai. When it was in port Zacharias stayed at the pension. I remember the name distinctly and later on he became famous as a Japanese expert. General, what sort of a fellow, aside from his drinking habits was, was Ellis? Just what was he like? Well as I recall him, he was a rather tall, thin man, with blue-eyes. Did he look a little bit like Brute in the face? I wouldn’t say that he did. There’s a photograph which gives him the same kind of eyes as Brute, very sharp, bright, alert eyes. He had sharp, alert, bright eyes, yes. But his height was taller as I remember, and he had a thinner face, as I recall it. But, I never thought of that comparison. Frankly I didn’t see him very often. I mean he was in the aides’ office only once or twice. Ellis’ mission was very hush, hush. There was another officer in the Marine Intelligence Section who claimed to be an authority on Japan by the name of Reynolds. Did you ever hear of Reynolds? R-E-Y-N-O-L-D-S? Kidney Foot Reynolds. Dave Barry and I used to call him “Ssh, Ssh,” because he wouldn’t talk on account of being in ONI. He always whispered. He was a queer old duck and used to come pattering up the stairs, peep in the door to see if anyone was in the office before entering. A super secret fellow – whom Dave and I used to make fun of. But, Ellis I didn’t know very well. As far as the mystique about him, in fact, I believe he was an enlisted man in about 1907. I wouldn’t know. Could that have been possible? No, Well I don’t know. I mean I don’t think that he could have been an enlisted man and been so brainy. Ellis had this reputation in the Marine Corps as being one of the brainiest men in the Corps on staff work. It had 6 been said General George Marshall was a brainy Staff Officer during World War I when he was on Pershing’s staff. Well Pete Ellis had the same kind of mind. I know they depended on him at Brigade headquarters. Where he was the Chief-of-Staff, G-one, two, three, and four. Even as far down as, the company and platoon, Pete Ellis’ name was legend during World War I but I have heard he was a heavy drinker after the fighting in France was over and the Brigade was on occupational duty on the Rhine. Barrett was picked to take over from Ellis. It was after Ellis had returned to the United States that I was ordered to the Fourth Brigade Headquarters to be Barrett’s assistant on the staff. He wanted somebody to help him and I was fortunate to have the opportunity to do so. I earned my staff pay in those days, but I learned a lot. This leads to Barrett’s role “in amphibious operations in later years. In my opinion, Charlie Barrett was, with all due respect to General Holcomb whom I admire, the officer who contributed more than anyone else in the Marine Corps toward the broad concept of amphibious operations. You may no agree with me, and I admit my opinion may be influenced by my great devotion to Charlie Barrett. I knew him personally and discussed amphibious doctrine with him on many occasions. He was closer to me than my father. I mean, I say professionally. My father was a doctor in Norfolk, and I seldom saw him when I was a boy because he was practicing medicine night and day. He had the biggest obstetrical practice in Virginia and was gone all the time. But I grew to know Charlie Barrett intimately especially when we went back to France together after the war to make a relief map of the Belleau Wood Battlefield. During this period we became close friends. Some years later I was a student in the senior class of the Marine Corps Schools while he was an instructor. Barrett had just come back from the Ecole d’Guerre in France and was well versed in modern warfare. He was an enthusiastic supporter of the amphibious concept. I recall his discussing sending reconnaissance patrols ashore from a submarine. He said: now we send out patrols when we are engaged in combat ashore to determine the strength and location of the enemy. He once said to me, “Why can’t we send patrols off a submarine to make a reconnaissance of the hostile shore line and locate the enemy’s defenses?” This was the concept, which was often followed during World War II, of making a reconnaissance of the beaches before a landing was made. This is an example of Barrett’s forward thinking on amphibious operations for which I believe historians should give him full credit. Maybe Ellis was the first Marine to foresee the need for the development of amphibious operations to be employed in the Pacific in the event of war with Japan. But Barrett, in my opinion, was the officer who contributed more than anyone else to the development envisioned by Ellis in so far as the doctrine and employment of troops in a landing operation is concerned without detracting from General Holcomb or 7 Q: Shepherd: Q (Heinl): Shepherd: Q: Shepherd: Q: Shepherd: General Holland Smith who later carried out the tactical and logistical procedures formulated in the Marine Cops Schools while Barrett was an instructor. In my own field, in naval gunfire support, I know that Barrett gave Ansel, who was there on the staff of the school in those days, Admiral Ansel, gave Ansel a lot of the initial ideas, a lot of the initial concepts that were later brought forward for example and made practical by Don Weller. Yes, that is correct. Ansel was rather skeptical about what naval gunfire could do as many naval officers were. Barrett had figures that he had gotten at the Ecole d’Guerre on the amount of saturation that was required to get effective neutralization in an attack against various types of fortified positions, in which the French had had a long and often tragic experience. Barrett sat down and started trying to transpose these calculations into terms of what you could get out of the existing batteries of the various types of ships, and somehow set Ansel on fire, and he remembers it to this day. Barrett, according to Ansel, was the moving force in this achievement, General. That’s right. You are substantiating what I just said. My first association with Barrett was when I was ordered to the Fourth Brigade Headquarters while I was on occupation duty on the Rhine following the Armistice of World War I. Are you interested? Yes, sir. Keep right on. I was ordered to Brigade Headquarters in July, just after the Army of Occupation on the Rhine began its march on Berlin before the Germans signed the peace treaty. You know they wouldn’t sign, so we started marching and got up to the border of the occupied zone. This move forced the Germans to sign the Versailles Peace Treaty in 1919. That was when Foch moved? Yes, moved forward. I had the leading company of the Second Battalion, 5th Marines which was the advance guard. The battalion was ordered to jump off at nine o’clock at night. We were lined up on the perimeter ready to go at eight o’clock that night when we received word that the Germans had signed and to return to our billets. Upon my return to Segendorf I found orders assigning me to the Staff of the Fourth Marine Brigade. It was very soon after that the Brigade returned to the States. Barrett was the Brigade Chief-of-Staff and I served directly under him so had the opportunity to become well acquainted with him and learned to admire his fine qualities and able mind. Just to show you how the man’s brain worked, he had a forward thinking concept about history. He said, now Belleau Woods is the greatest battle in which the Marines have participated in a long time. We should make a relief map of this battlefield. You know he was a great cartographer. That was his specialty. I mean he was an expert in topography which he had taught at the Marine Corps Schools. He said, “I think we ought to go back to Belleau Woods and make a relief map of the area for historical purposes.” 8 Q: Shepherd: Q: Shepherd: Q (Heinl): Shepherd: Q (Heinl): Shepherd: Q (Heinl): Shepherd: In those days there weren’t but two relief maps in the United States, one up at Gettysburg and – I forgot where the other one was. Down in Atlanta, I think, wasn’t the other, General? Maybe so, I really don’t know but I think Barrett had gotten the idea from the relief map showing the battlefield at Gettysburg where he had taken classes from the Marine Corps Schools to study this historic battle. During the voyage from France to the United States Barrett said, to me, “I think we ought to make a map of Belleau Woods because it is of great historical significance to the Marine Corps, it’s the greatest battle that Marine Corps has ever participated in. If I can arrange to return to France to make a map of Belleau Woods, would you like to go with me?” Since I had studied Civil Engineering at college and was well versed in topography I told Barrett I would like to go with him. Barrett obtained authority to carry out his proposal to make a relief map of Belleau Woods. Upon the disbandment of the Brigade at Quantico we organized a mapping detachment consisting of four officers who were familiar with map making and six enlisted men to be rodmen and automobile drivers. We obtained transits, drawing boards and other engineering equipment from the Marine Corps Schools and within two weeks we sailed back to France. After arrival in the States? Yes. I’d been gone over two years and only had time to have a weekend with my parents. We went right back to France, sailing from New York to Brest. The ship on which we obtained passage was the Sol Navis, a war time freighter with very poor accommodations and could travel at a speed of only 12 knots. Were you married then, General? No. Well then you were a bachelor going back to France. Yes, that’s right. Tell us about the relief map, you were planning to make. Since Major Barrett was an accomplished Cartographer he envisioned making a topographical map from which a relief map could be reproduced in plaster-of-paris. The scale of the map was 1 to 100 or one inch on the map represented one hundred feet on the ground. Such a large scale map would show ever terrain feature in detail – woods, fields, farms and individual houses in the villages included in the area. Since the only relief map of any size in existence at the time was the one of the Gettysburg battlefield made many years previously, we became pioneers in the field of relief maps before the project was completed and originated several unique techniques in their construction. The France Map Detachment, as our unit was officially named, consisted of Major Barrett in command, Captain Cumming operated the transit and I did the sketching. The two enlisted men were used as rodmen. Barrett, with a draftsman, transferred the topographical sketches the two parties made in the field to a master map in his office. 9 Q: Shepherd: In addition to the sketching parties, Barrett took along an enlisted artist who made colored drawings of the houses platted on the map and a warrant officer by the name of Gustav Broadstrum modeled the houses in clay and painted them to correspond to the original dwellings. The terrain Major Barrett assigned to be mapped included all of Belleau Wood and an area of equal size to the west which included Hill 142 and Le Mares Farm where the Fifth Marines had stopped the German attack prior to the Fourth Brigade assault on Belleau Wood. The mapping of the area took about three months. Following our return to Quantico it took six months to complete the relief map which was about sixteen feet square. The map was placed in the National Museum in Washington and received favorable comment by all who viewed it. A Marine who had lost his arm in combat at Belleau Wood was assigned duty at the museum to describe the battle. For years this Marine Corps exhibit provided an excellent public relations media for the Corps. After World War II the Belleau Wood relief map was returned to the Marine Corps and stored at Quantico. It was while I was assigned to the France Map Detachment that I came to know Major Barrett intimately and I learned to admire his outstanding character and professional ability. Our friendship continued throughout the years and it gave me great pleasure to serve as on of his regimental commanders when he became commanding general of the Gird Marine Division during the early part of World War II. Life Magazine recently came out with a fiftieth anniversary of World War I. It showed how the battlefield still was in bad condition, how they were still finding bones, and so on. What was the condition of, say, Belleau Wood when you went back there within less than two years after the battle? I am sure this was the condition of many of the battlefields which were fought over for several years such as Verdun and Blanc Mont in the Champagne. Belleau Woods was only fought over for a couple of months so it wasn’t as bad as some of the others. When I revisited Blanc Mont, where I had also fought in 1918. The trenches were still there. They were quite obvious because the ground was a chalky soil. You know the chalk is a little below the surface of the earth, so everywhere there was a trench dug there was a white line. There was one instance in the vicinity of Belleau Wood when we were mapping the area that we found, in a well, the skeletons of a Marine and a German or rather the bodies of a Marine and a German; they still had on their uniforms which identified them. Whether they were fighting and fell in the well, I don’t know but we recovered their remains and buried them in the cemetery. We also found bodies of Marines and Germans in the grass and thickets where they had died during the battle and their remains not located subsequently. The battle of Belleau Wood was fought in the summer of 1918, and this was the fall of 1919. Just a 10 Q: Shepherd: Q (Heinl): Shepherd: Q (Heinl): Shepherd: Q: Shepherd: Q (Heinl): Shepherd: Q (Heinl): Shepherd: Q: Shepherd: Q: Shepherd: Q: Shepherd: year and a half later. So there were still bodies around that nobody had buried while the battle was going on. Did they have graves registration teams? They were just beginning to operate and were making the cemetery at Belleau Wood – not making the cemetery but just bringing the bodies there for burial. That’s the cemetery where the Army Battle Monument Commission would never let us put a Marine Corps emblem on, if you remember, General. Not until I became Commandant. You’ve seen this monument. (Pointing to a photograph of the Marine Monument in Belleau Wood.) You’ve been there, of course. Yes, sir. I certainly have. Do you know how this was accomplished? That’s when you went over, wasn’t it sir, to dedicate it at the ceremony? I was over in France to attend a meeting of NATO while I was Commandant and went to Belleau Woods. The Woods were very beautiful in the spring when I visited the cemetery but there wasn’t one single marker anywhere showing that the Marines took Belleau Woods nor that it w